JAM:KWilliams,CFreud,GJones
WELCOME TO JUST A MINUTE!

starring KENNETH WILLIAMS, CLEMENT FREUD and GERALDINE JONES, chaired by NICHOLAS PARSONS (Radio, 28 October 1968)


NICHOLAS PARSONS: Welcome to Just A Classic Minute! My name is Nicholas Parsons and Iíve been chairman of Just A Minute since it began on BBC Radio Four in 1967. Keen followers of contemporary Just A Minute may be amazed how the game was played during the early days. The premise was the same as it is today. No hesitation, repetition or deviation. But in the early series, the rules of the game were very loosely defined, and I would often interpret them in a haphazard way. For instance, the rule of repetition did not apply to the repeating of words, although it could. More usually the challenge would be repetition of a thought or idea, in a similar way that the rule of deviation was applied. This meant that every challenge by a player was a gamble, something that did not advance the show. These days, I apply the rules far more rigourously, and the fun arises from my efforts as chairman to maintain some consistency. It is precisely this kind of development over 36 years or more which has contributed to the showís success. And it is perhaps testament to the cleverness of its creator Ian Messiter, that his early imprecise rules allowed for such evolution. Although the pilot episode of Just A Minute contained some good laughs, it didnít greatly impress the powers that be at the BBC. Perhaps they thought it sounded a little old fashioned, and they were reluctant to commission a series. In fact, David Hatch the producer had to fight to persuade them there was potential in the format, even to the point of threatening his resignation unless he was given a series. Happily he won the day and we had our first run. Derek Nimmo and Clement Freud survived from the pilot, and were joined on successive weeks by other well-known performers. Our first programme in this classic collection is from the second series in 1968. David Hatch had decided to develop the format by having only three players instead of the usual four, an experiment which was part of the evolution I mentioned earlier. Although it was reasonably successful, the three player format survived for only one series. You will also note that the announcer says ďthe chairman this week is Nicholas ParsonsĒ. The reason being that David had also decided as a gimmick, for three episodes only, to put me on the panel and have the other players take the chair for one week each. Again it was an interesting experiment, but one which was never repeated. David Hatch also had the inspiration to bring on board for the second series, Kenneth Williams, who once heíd found his feet soon discovered that Just A Minute provided an excellent vehicle for his comic skills and character voices, as well as offering him the opportunity to show off his erudition and knowledge. He loved the show and was a regular for many years. Before we get started I ought to point out a couple of other peculiarities of the early days. It was for a time the practice to have rounds in which a specific word could not be used. Once it was realised that the basic format was strong enough to survive without such handicaps, they were dropped. Similarly by 1968 the whistle had not yet been introduced to denote the passing of a full 60 seconds. In the first series, Ian Messiter had the idea of using a rather camp cuckoo noise. That soon went. Then it was a hooter noise, which was rather confusing as it sounded very much like the buzzers used by the players. The introduction of the whistle a few series later was excellent as it lent a sharp, concise and dramatic note to the proceedings, in keeping with the way the series was evolving. So here we go with the first episode from this collection, first broadcast in October 1968. In it Kenneth Williams and Clement Freud are joined by Geraldine Jones, an intelligent and articulate woman from Oxford University.

THEME MUSIC

ANNOUNCER: We present Kenneth Williams, Clement Freud and Geraldine Jones in Just A Minute. And as the Minute Waltz fades away here to tell you about it is this weekís chairman Nicholas Parsons.

NP: Thank you very much indeed and welcome once again to Just A Minute. May I just remind you for those who may not have heard the programme before of the rules. Iím going to give these three people on the panel some unlikely subject to talk about which they know nothing about. They must then try and speak for 60 seconds without hesitation, without repetition and without deviating from the subject. If one of the other two think they are guilty of this crime, they may challenge them. And if I uphold their challenge they gain a point and if the challenge goes against them, the person whoís speaking will gain a point. I think the rest of the points will become clear as we go along so let us start straight off with Kenneth Williams. Can you talk for Just A Minute on winter woollies starting now.

KENNETH WILLIAMS: Winter woollies got this name because, of course, of the action of Monty Woolley, who used to come on... no, he used to come on dressed in this red flannelette in The Man Who Came to Dinner. Not to be confused with Monty the General, of course, who when he arrived in his VBDs in Chonking found this old Chinaman who dropped dead at his feet. And he said "is this the usual customary greeting here or are they suffering from malnutrition?" And they said "no, itís because he sang Come Into The Garden Lord, The Black Great Night Has Flown". (goes into full on gibberish) Which brings us of course to Cinderella who sat by the embers of the fire because she hadnít remembered to put her winter underwear on, you see. And this old witch came in, came past the siren business and she said "you can have three wishes and your pumpkin turns into a carriage or a load of rats, you know, as the case may be". And the prince said "anyone who fits that Wellington boot on their feet will be my wife". "Well," she cried, "joy in the eyebold, joy to behold, and I canít really think...

BELL

KW: Oh!

NP: Thatís the first time for a very long time that anybody has actually managed to speak for Just A Minute without being interrupted. Nearly all of it was completely irrelevant from winter woollies! But it was a magnificent effort and Iím going to award Kenneth Williams a bonus point, so you start off with two!

KW: Oh thank you very much! A bonus point! Not to be sniffed at!

NP: Right Geraldine your chance to try and repeat the inimitable Kenneth. Geraldine Jones will you talk for Just A Minute on impressing strangers, starting now.

GERALDINE JONES: The best strangers to impress are those you meet in railway carriages. Preferably first class ones, because you meet a better type of sex maniac in them! I always like to...

BUZZ

NP: Kenneth Williams challenged.

KW: Oh Iím sorry! Yes, why, we donít want a load of filth on the show! I mean! Whatís it got to do with sex maniacs?

GJ: Wait and see!

NP: Kenneth Williams, Kenneth, we do not want a load of filth on this programme. Will you please keep quiet and let... And let Geraldine Jones continue with her subject! Geraldine you have 49 and a half seconds left to discuss impressing strangers starting now.

GJ: The nicest thing about this is that you can pretend to be somebody completely different from who you really are. I always like to impress strangers that I am a spy and for this reason I always travel on trains wearing dark glasses and an astracam collar. I also undo the heel of my shoe from time to time and extract little things that look like tiny microfilms. Everyone in the compartment looks at me very strangely and I sniff and impress them that I am a sort of female James...

BUZZ

NP: Kenneth Williams.

KW: Hesitation.

NP: Yes I think this time, she was...

KW: Mmmmm!

NP: She was...

KW: Undoubtedly! She was hesitating all the time!

NP: You have another point for that and you have the subject of impressing strangers Kenneth, starting now.

KW: Well of course the first thing to do is to behave with an air of confidence. The moment you walk into the room you must appear to know exactly what youíre doing! If you donít come in with that impression, they will think "oh, he donít know what heís doing!" And of course, thereafter you donít stand a chance at impressing them. The first thing we all want to do when we come into a room is to be liked. I mean none of us want to, want people to give us the cold shoulder, do we? So we all become very nice, very happy...

BELL

KW: Oh good! I won it, you see1

NP: Kenneth itís your day! Youíre playing the game with a flamboyance that overcomes you!

KW: Yes! I donít know whatís come over me!

NP: Well anyway youíve taken a commanding lead, and Geraldine has got a point, Clement has yet to score, but...

CLEMENT FREUD: I have yet to speak!

NP: Look donít worry, he can come from behind and win convincingly if youíre not careful. So Clement Freud itís your turn to speak and no doubt win some points and a subject which Iím sure you can discourse on at great length, but just 60 seconds will do, matches, starting now.

CF: Matches also tend to be contests between people, teams, clubs, universities or institutions. But perhaps in the first instance the general public will think of this word in the context of pieces of wood which have a sulphuric adhesive at one end which is struck against emory paper or similar substance...

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: Hesitation.

NP: I think youíre right, yes. Geraldine you have a point, you have the subject, you have 20, 36 seconds and the subject is matches starting now.

GJ: Matches offer an enormous amount of entertainment. Whether youíre making matches between your friends and hoping that X will marry Y if you can only bring them together at a suitable moment...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: Thatís devious, X marrying Y.

KW: Yes, thatís true!

CF: Yes!

GJ: Best friends!

NP: Geraldine, Geraldine...

CF: Nasty!

NP: It sounds very nasty but can you qualify it and make it not so nasty for us?

GJ: Well I...

NP: In about two sentences, very rapidly?

GJ: I donít like to say too much about these friends of mine, but I can assure you they do exist.

NP: Then itís still deviation, itís definitely devious...

KW: Yes! Itís devious!

NP: You have a point and you have, er, how many seconds? You have 27 seconds for matches and you start now.

CF: Matches are not essential because it is believed if you rub two Boy Scouts together a similar sort of thing will happen...

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine?

GJ: Deviation, heís off matches!

NP: Yes! If your X and Y was devious, by God, those Boy Scouts are devious! My goodness me! You have a point, you have the subject back Geraldine, you have 18 seconds, it is matches starting now.

GJ: They also make wonderful toys for very fidgety people like me who can take a box of matches, build them into houses, strike them against each other, see if you can strike a match and hold it at the other end so that it burns along the whole way and you get a nice little black bit that doesnít look at all like the original thing you started with. You can...

BELL

NP: For any listeners who may not have established our scoring system from whatís being going on, when the bell goes whoeverís speaking gains another point. Geraldine was speaking then, so she is now equal in the lead with Kenneth Williams. And Clement Freud is trailing somewhat. Kenneth Williams, it is your turn to begin. Oh Kenneth! After your performance in the first one what a subject Ian Messiterís thought of for this one for you. Grand... I canít even pronounce it! Grandiloquence!

KW: Oh!

NP: Iíll give you a second to think about it.

KW: No Iím all right.

NP: Are you all right, are you? Grandiloquence starting now.

KW: Well of course, this is taken I think generally to mean over-ornamentation in speech, rather like the St Pancreas Station. And weíre told, of course, that the architect of that cried his eyes out when it was opened and he said "oh itís too lovely! Itís too lovely!" And indeed crying brings us back to grandiloquence. Shakespeare himself says (very fast) speak the speech I pray you as I pronounce it, tripping it on the tongue and meld it...

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: Deviation.

NP: Why?

GJ: Well I, I think that if we let him finish the speech it would have been over the minute and we would have got what is not grandiloquence rather than what is.

NP: Well Geraldine youíre completely wrong, he hasnít even gone half a minute yet. Heís no expression of grandiloquence and I felt that Shakespeare probably was quite a good example of it. So Kenneth I am still with you, you still have grandiloquence, you have 36 seconds and you start now.

KW: Well another example of it would I suppose be summed up by Disraeliís remark about the man who was indulging in it to excess, when he said, when he said... in grandiloquence I mean! He said, he said "the gentleman is overcome..."

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: Repetition, he said, he said, he said.

KW: Well I had to, dearie, I mean it was to underline the point.

NP: Actually this is one of those difficult situations. I do think that Kenneth was trying to illustrate his point. And yet...

GJ: Repetitively!

NP: ... he particularly did use repetition. His point was somewhat devious I thought. But Geraldine has challenged on repetition. Now Iím going to put it quite clearly to this delightful looking audience here. If you think that Geraldineís challenge was justified, will you please cheer. If you think it was unjustified, will you boo, and will you all do it now!

CHEERS AND BOOS FROM THE AUDIENCE

NP: Kenneth theyíre with you!

KW: Yes!

NP: You have another point, youíre well in the lead as well, you have 23 seconds, you have grandiloquence and you start now.

KW: Well you see, Disraeli did say about this "the gentleman was overcome by the exuberance of his own verbosity". And that I think would be...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: Repetition, Disraeli said that.

NP: Are you accusing him of repetition of Disraeli?

CF: Yes.

NP: Shut up, Kenneth Williams!

KW: I said nothing!

NP: You said quite enough, you are playing to the audience. Clement Freud is trailing for once and heíll probably soon catch up, watch out! He has the subject of grandiloquence, Clement you have 14 seconds and you start now.

CF: Grandiloquence means talking rather like Kenneth Williams, only more so. Itís a fine, noble and upstanding way of speaking and impressing people at the same time who look up to the speaker saying...

BELL

KW: Oooohhh he won!

NP: Well Clement Freud is catching up on Geraldine Jones who is catching up on Kenneth Williams. But Kenneth is not going to be caught up, heís still in the lead. Clement Freud it is your turn to start and the subject is the art of letter writing and you have 60 seconds starting now.

CF: The art of letter writing is generally attained by the use of a pen, a pencil or some other instrument which when pressed on to a piece of paper leaves a mark of some kind. Many letters begin with such good phrases as "my husband and I" or just "dear Charlie, thank you very much indeed". And these pieces of paper are then put into an envelope which is sealed by licking the adhesive substance on the envelope...

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: Deviation.

NP: Why?

GJ: Well these, these are the rather crude mechanics of putting paper in envelopes. Nothing to do with the art of letter writing and composition.

NP: I quite agree actually. Putting the letters into envelopes is nothing to do with the art of letter writing. Thatís what youíre trying to say, isnít it.

GJ: Thatís what I thought I said!

NP: Geraldine do you want two points? Iíll give you one and the subject and 30 seconds for the art of letter writing starting now.

GJ: I have developed the art of letter writing over a long and difficult period. You need to write an awful lot of letters before you feel that every piece of composition that you write has that unmistakable ring that you, the great Geraldine Jones...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: Hesitation.

NP: Unfortunately yes. Clement you have another point, you have the art of letter writing starting... oh and the time! You have 16 and a half seconds starting now.

CF: The most truly artistic letter that I have ever received did come from Miss Geraldine Jones who wrote to me from the Oxford Union. And the letter was one of such artistry I shall now recite it in full. "Dear Mr Freud, I would like you very much..." This was duplicated...

BELL

NP: Kenneth Williams it is your turn to begin. Oh first of all thereís a penalty that theyíre going to inflict on you this time.

KW: Oh I hate them!

NP: I know! Itís quite a simple one, itís a collective one. They, the word they, you mustnít say the word they. The subject is bird watching, youíve thought about it for a second, I think itís only fair when you have to leave out the word they. You have 60 seconds starting now.

KW: Well of course you do need your hollow trunk. You must have a hollow trunk, and you get inside it and you stick all these twigs and leaves on to your hair and all over your arms so that you do look like a tree. And then possibly the birds will come right close to you. Itís no good putting a load of snakes in your hair like Medusa, because birds donít go for snakes, apart from eagles. And eagles arenít very often seen in England anyway. Only that one got out of the zoo the other day and all those birds, you know, got rushing, er...

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: He was just going...

NP: Hesitation.

GJ: Hesitation.

NP: Geraldine you have a point, you have 29 seconds for bird watching, no they, starting now.

GJ: I have no interest in looking at the feathered birds that Kenneth Williams has been talking about. Equally I think I would be accused of deviation if I claimed to do any of the bird watching that is vulgarly known in Cockney language as looking at women. So I suppose I must just talk about something that I donít really know anything about. If youíre watching birds, apart from all the camouflage that the more sophisticated bird watchers...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: Hesitation.

NP: Ah...

KW: Yes! Definite! Oh! Definite!

NP: Well I actually thought it was, but Iíll tell you most definitely I think it was. But there seems to be such a vociferous audience here who want to make their feelings known that I will give them a chance to do it again. If you think that she was hesitating will you please cheer, if you think she wasnít hesitating, boo. And will you all do it now.

CHEERS AND BOOS FROM THE AUDIENCE

NP: She was not hesitating, Clement Freud. The audiences are the final judge. Geraldine Jones you have another point, you have seven seconds, you have bird watching, no theys, starting now.

GJ: Only flamboyant people like Kenneth Williams need to dress up in twigs to watch birds...

BUZZ

NP: Kenneth Williams, Kenneth Williams?

KW: Deviation, the subjectís bird watching. Itís not me dressing up in twigs.

NP: I think the idea of you dressing up in twigs is very devious. I quite agree and Kenneth you have the subject and here we go, you have two seconds for bird watching starting now.

KW: Well in winter you get the bluetits of course...

BELL

NP: Kenneth Williams with that last remark of his, believe it or not, not only gained an extra point, he crept into second place alongside Geraldine Jones, who are both just about one point behind Clement Freud. Geraldine it is your turn to begin and weíre having another penalty on this round, the penalty is the word I. You mustnít say I in any way at all. The subject is humbugs, Iíll give you a second to think about it, humbugs, 60 seconds starting now.

GJ: Itís extremely difficult for egocentric people like me to talk about anything without using the word that is vetoed in this game. Humbugs I think are mainly...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: I.

NP: I think, Clement Freud. Yes you have a point, you have 51 seconds for humbugs, no I, starting now.

CF: Humbugs are delicate sweets made of spun sugar, flavoured as often as not with mint...

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: Hesitation.

NP: Hesitation, you are right, you have another point, you have 43 seconds, humbugs, no I, starting now.

GJ: Humbugs can also be people. The sort of people that end up in Parliament saying things that they donít really mean. Saying things that sound good but in fact are very specious indeed. The humbugs that...

BUZZ

NP: Kenneth Williams challenged.

KW: Hesitation.

NP: Hesitation. You have a point, you have the subject, 30 seconds, humbugs, no I, starting now.

KW: Humbugs are people of course who continually indulge in bigotry. Theyíre always to be found with prejudices and nasty theories of their own which they wish to impose on everyone else. And theyíre to be avoided, avoided like the plague. Theyíre a load of locusts in society and I for one believe...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud you have another point, I donít need to ask you what it was for, you have 14 seconds starting now.

CF: Kenneth Williams as he has so rightly said is not a humbug. Because this sort of person is a phony, a difficult and complicated politician who speaks words that he doesnít mean...

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: Repetition, weíve had this idea three times.

NP: I donít think that in the rules of the game he really was. He has another point with two seconds to go for humbugs, with no I, starting now.

CF: Most good sweet shops sell these...

BELL

NP: Well from the listenerís point of view, the interesting point is that if Geraldine hadnít challenged there, probably the scores would be equal. But it does mean that Clement Freud is now in the lead with Geraldine Jones and Kenneth Williams equal second still. Clement Freud it is your turn to begin. A subject which I feel that you can talk about with some authority, we hope so, for just 60 seconds will do, the opposite sex. Having given you the subject think about it for a second because weíre going to have you a real penalty this time. You mustnít say either the word he or she. In talking about the opposite sex for 60 seconds starting now.

CF: I always refer to the opposite sex as it. I find that people prefer this to the definite article and get immensely flattered especially when they come into a room and you turn to your guests and say "I canít remember its name but it last came into this room wearing a skirt or a dress or a coat. And...

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: Hesitation.

NP: Hesitation, yes, we didnít know what that it was doing, did we? Right Geraldine there are 40, no there are 37 seconds left for the opposite sex without mentioning he or she, starting now.

GJ: It is of course is perfectly logical for the opposite sex to all us human beings to be called it. But it makes it... much...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: Hesitation.

NP: Hesitation, yes. Clement you have another point, you have the subject back with 30 seconds, the opposite sex, no he or she starting now.

CF: From my own point of view, this of course refers to women who are the best possible opposite sex for a man. Women are lovely, fat, blousy, bumptious creatures who creep into oneís life full of little sayings that are endearing and homely and kindly and make one feel warm and comfortable and wanted. Women are easily distinguishable...

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: A plethora of women!

NP: Oh what a clever challenge! Yes I think it was a very clever challenge because there were a lot of women going around here, youíre quite right. And so we have a repetition of women, if not spoken, certainly by implication. And so Geraldine you have a point, you have the subject. And if Iíve favoured you, probably itís fair because Clementís in a commanding lead. You have six seconds left for the opposite sex, no hes or shes starting now.

GJ: I dislike the phrase opposite sex because it has a sort of circumlocution about it. You feel that when people talk...

BUZZ

BELL

NP: Clement Freud challenged. Clement you challenged just before it.

CF: Hesitation.

NP: No, Iím sorry, there was no hesitation. Geraldine has another point, she has one second left for the subject of the opposite sex, no he or she, starting now.

GJ: People who talk about...

BELL

NP: So she has another point. Well Geraldine you have now managed to creep into an equal lead with Clement Freud, and Kenneth Williams is, alas, trailing a little behind. And if youíve never seen Kenneth Williams trailing a little behind you havenít missed anything! Kenneth itís your turn to begin, something we hope you can tell us a great deal about. In which 60 seconds, English slang, starting now.

KW: This is not something Iím really very qualified to discuss. Because slang is of course borne of laziness in speech and is generally used by people without a very large vocabulary. My vocabulary is very extensive indeed. But I suppose a good example of slang would be that Cockney rhyming practice, whereby they say apples and pears for stairs, and shout nollar for collar. And north and south for mouth. I believe this is a common parlance among Cockneys and they say "what you got in your north?" when they mean of course, in your mouth. And they also say "are you going up the apples?" when of course they really mean the stairs...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: Weíve had that once, repetition.

NP: Yes weíve only had it once though. I think within the context of the game I think heís...

KW: No heís quite right!

NP: Is he?

KW: Heís absolutely right! Heís perfectly right!

NP: Do you want to give it to him?

KW: Yes!

NP: Oh Kenneth youíre so generous! Kenneth Williams has given Clement Freud a point and of course the subject which he obviously didnít want! And 19 seconds, Clement Freud for English slang starting now.

CF: Perhaps the most endearing form of English slang as Kenneth Williams so eruditely pointed out is rhyming slang. In which measure of speech I would like to commend to your attention: happies. Now happies was rhyming slang for flowers, coming from happy half..

BUZZ

NP: Geraldine Jones.

GJ: Hesitation.

NP: Yes I think there was just a mild hesitation there. With only two seconds left you have English slang starting now.

GJ: Contrary to what...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: Hesitation.

KW: Yes! Hesitation! Oh definite hesitation!

NP: Hesitation, Clement Freud, you have the subject back, you have one second for English sang, slang, starting...

KW: Sang slang?

NP: Put your thumb over...

KW: Oh sorry, you were saying slang. Yes I realise.

NP: Kenneth Williams, itís your chance. Put your finger on your buzzer. Clement Freud you have one second left for English slang starting now.

CF: Any form of speech...

BELL

NP: Well Clement Freud has taken a minute lead from Geraldine Jones, and Kenneth Williams is still alas trailing a little, but only a little. Geraldine itís your turn to begin. Geraldine Jones the subject is brewing, for 60 seconds, can you think... Iíll give you a second as youíve gone so wide-eyed in amazement. Brewing, itís rather a male subject isnít it. But anyway, start now.

GJ: Brewing tea is something I can do. Brewing beer is something I couldnít possibly do. I wouldnít really want to be able to brew beer because I think itís a rather revolting... drink. Tea on the other hand usually gets worse the longer you brew it. It goes stale and horrible and smells. It goes darker in colour. It generally tastes... (starts to giggle, then begins to laugh heartily without being buzzed) This is a former of sadism on the part of the other two players of this game...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: Deviation.

NP: She was not deviating...

CF: Sadism has nothing to do with brewing!

NP: I think Geraldine Jones was not committing any crime. She was being intimidated. Geraldine the subject is still yours! And you have 24 seconds left for brewing, another point start...

GJ: Itís extremely difficult to talk about brewing when youíre rendered in (starts to laugh) unable to speak by giggles which are produced by the sadistic onslaught of the two men on either side who want to hear you make a fool of yourself talking about your ignorance on a subject like brewing. Brewing is extremely complicated...

BUZZ

NP: Clement Freud.

CF: Repetition.

NP: Of brewing yes, she has brewed up quite a few times. So Clement Freud you have another point, you have the subject of brewing and er you have um seven seconds, eight seconds left starting now.

CF: Brewing is something that takes time. In the case of beer it means the betterment of the product by letting it rest...

BELL

NP: Well that alas is all we have time for in Just A Minute. Kenneth Williams was just behind Geraldine Jones, who was just a little way behind Clement Freud who was this weekís winner!

THEME MUSIC

ANNOUNCER: The chairman of Just A Minute this week was Nicholas Parsons, the programme was devised by Ian Messiter and produced by David Hatch.